Canadian Lawyer InHouse

Q 35 CANADIANLAWYERMAG.COM/INHOUSE JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2018 of other changes we've seen in the judiciary and the client base opposite us. LAING: Maybe one of the more distinct pressures we face is that we are outward facing — we go into court and we represent and are a proxy for our client and so profile and how you approach the court is very important. As a junior in a litigation practice, you are asking yourself: "What is my style?" You're looking for role models. I think one of the changes we're seeing is there is much more diversity of role models now, even if you look around this table there are many more acceptable ways to be a female litigator than there were 15 years ago. We're seeing women on the bench who are women we would like to emulate. I think generally it's getting easier to find your own authentic style without feeling like there are some narrow approaches you have to emulate and that have worked in the past. LALJI: I'm a client to external counsel, but I also have internal clients as well and what I find is in our litigation group there are four of us of which three are women so to me that's fantastic and we're all quite senior. One of the things I have found is that with in-house positions, I think generally there have historically been more women at junior levels and the senior levels tend to be men. I'm seeing a shift in that and seeing more women in senior roles in legal but in particular in the business. I'm finding at the bank there are fantastic senior women role models. Our CEO is really committed to having more senior women in executive roles and that's his commitment. I find even with male clients internally, definitely on the trading side, with the investment bankers it's a bit tougher — they apologize for swearing and I have to remind them I'm a litigator, I'm familiar with the f-bomb. I find now though that we end up being their go-to people; it doesn't matter that I'm a woman. In terms of where I'm the client, in the past I found every time I would go to court as the client I was very aware of the fact of when I'm looking at everyone in the room I'm one of the few, and often one of the only, women in the room, including my own counsel. Over the last eight years, I've seen a shift. I don't select my external counsel because they're women, I select them because they are the best at what they do and think they can do the best for the bank. What I have found is the team I hire tend to be women or led by women. I often think: "I didn't do that on purpose, I just picked the best." MACKEWN: Do you find they [women] are more prepared for the phone calls and things like that? LALJI: Generally, yes, but I do it more by email. One thing I find is women are generally much more responsive. The other thing I find dealing with male external counsel is initially they didn't think they needed to keep me up to date — I would hear, "Don't worry, we have it under control." I had one situation where I would follow up with external counsel and they wouldn't give me updates and in the interim of eight months they brought a motion, lost it, appealed, lost that. . . . I'm providing reports to executives saying everything is in abeyance and [they've] been running the file and we haven't even discussed the strategy. That was the last time that happened. I think men don't really think they need to engage their clients as much whereas women are quite a bit different. There is more communication and they are more collaborative. They know when they have an in-house counsel they know what kind of relationship they have with them. They know I'm very involved and have a view on everything. MELISSA MACKEWN Crawley MacKewn Brush LLP Litigation boutique of 12 lawyers Commercial litigator in the area of securities regulation. INHOUSE: Does that perhaps go back to the days when external ran it because in-house would just hand over the file? PLUMPTON: The old barrister model — give me the brief and let me know when it's over. LALJI: Yes, back then, businesses wouldn't have had litigators in-house. You had the corporate lawyer who could do everything and then farm out the litigation. That's not happening anymore. BEAGAN FLOOD: Picking up on something Reena said, I think one thing that has changed since I started is the focus on sponsorship. I was mentored primarily by men who were gender blind who were looking for someone they had confidence in to work on files. I don't think they were deliberately looking to sponsor or advance or thinking about the importance of diversity and what that added to litigation, whereas I think there is a much more conscious effort by leadership within the business and legal community to ensure that there is sponsorship by men in addition to having a wealth of mentor models, as Andrea mentioned. LAING: Or senior enough women to be in that wonderful position of being able to be a sponsor for someone. It's been a challenge as someone who mentors, I think, sometimes I have had male clients say to me 'Do you think you can be tough enough on this?' And I think to myself you clearly do not know me if you are asking me that question. They would never ask a man that. MELISSA MACKEWN, Crawley MacKewn Brush LLP

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