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we find ways, not only to network with other women, [but also with men]. CHOWN: I am interested in networks, as well, internal- ly because networks, and particularly male networks, are the best source of information that leads to power in law firms. So when women aren't part of these . . . they aren't getting a little bit of information about the next great brief that is coming on. . . . Maybe we have to do that more mechanically. So can we give them that information to, simply, even the playing field? ON ASSERTING YOURSELF CRONK: [T]he definition of leadership in law firms, in particular, often comes with a constellation of characteristics that relate to taking charge and seek- ing opportunities, being independent. And so, in not asking for those opportunities, you are undercutting yourself in many ways by, you know, being held up ficult conversations with an apology, and women just have to stop that. That has been a very difficult lesson to learn. But women start by apologizing for all the things they don't know, and they didn't do, and they can think of, and so on. And it does not create the reac- tion they are seeking; it creates quite the opposite one. You have to be very careful not to undercut yourself. CHOWN: I was just going to say that I remember, as a young litigator, the women in our group noticed that every time the men came back from court doing a motion, they would say, standing in the middle of the hall, very loudly, "I was great. I really killed, you know, the other side." And women will come back and say, "What a lucky break. I don't believe I slid that one through." I remember we said, "Okay, the next time we go to court, we are going to come back and stand in the middle of the hall and go, 'I was great.'" What was amazing is we all found that sort of uncomfortable. SWANSBURG: I remember learning about the victory lap, and there were a number of mostly senior men who, if they won in court, would walk around the halls and tell everybody about it. Women never did that. ON RELAXING AND COPING against the standard that you are not demonstrating those qualities. So it can hurt you. MORAN: I mean, it is tricky for women to exercise that right, in a way. As you said it, you don't want to be seen as pushy. I think women that do that are more likely to be seen as pushy, and it is more likely to be seen as problematic for women. So I think you actu- ally walk a bit of a fine line trying to assert yourself and be seen as someone who is capable of being in a more leadership position. . . . SWANSBURG: [I]t is such a fine line between being seen as a leader and being seen as a troublemaker, I think. And you really walk that tightrope, I found, ev- ery day, of trying to raise your hand and ask for the opportunities without being labelled a whiner or a troublemaker or not a team player. ON PROJECTING AN IMAGE ROTHSTEIN: I spend a lot of time with female clients in senior positions, telling them not to begin those dif- ROTHSTEIN: I really believe a vacation [for relaxing and coping] — as soon as you have one, you plan the next. I do think it is important to find some other passion in your life if you can. Sometimes a partner, sometimes a hobby, whatever else it is. MORAN: I think you need to be a bit daring . . . be- cause, I mean, we all live in worlds where I feel like I could work 24/7, and I have to be a bit courageous to say I am not going to. "I am going to go away in the summer. I am going to have a holiday." CHOWN: I would add to that friends. I think it is very important to maintain a network of friends that are not your work colleagues. For biographies of the CANADIAN LAWYER WOMEN IN LAW ROUNDTA- BLE PARTICIPANTS and a more fulsome version of their discussion, please visit our web site: www.canadianlawyermag.com www. C ANADIAN Law ye rmag.com JUNE 2008 27